Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread! This week we’ll be delving into the heavy subject of chemical and emotional addiction thanks to a certain downtrodden bridgeman. Thankfully we’ll then be lightening things up as we enter into another vision with Dalinar, in which he gets some unexpected company and backhanded compliments about… his butt?
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There are, once again, Cosmere-wide comments in discussion of this week’s epigraphs, though they aren’t really plot spoilers for anything. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Teft; Dalinar
WHERE: Urithiru marketplace; Aharietiam vision (again!)
WHEN: 1174.1.7.2 (The day after the Ch. 39 & 40 meeting, six days after the previous Bridge Four chapter)
In Chapter 41, we join Teft in the depths of a firemoss binge. He’s sold his coat for money to buy more of the drug, and is actively spurning the honorspren who’s following him around. Kaladin and Rock find him and carry him back to the barracks, but it’s only a matter of time before he falls prey to the addiction again…
Chapter 42 features Dalinar yanking yet another Rosharan politician into one of his visions—this time Gawx, the Prime of Azir. Lift’s little buddy doesn’t believe Dalinar at first, then when he does, he questions Dalinar’s motives, rightfully bringing up that the Alethi have been awful to the Azish in the past. Just as things are starting to turn around for Dalinar, though, who shows up but Lift! The Stormfather is flabbergasted about how she managed it, but—typically—she doesn’t give a hoot about either of them. She tells Gawx not to trust Dalinar and hauls him unceremoniously out of the vision.
The Singing Storm
Titles: On the Ground Looking Up; Consequences
Storms, but they were good men. Better friends than he deserved. They were all growing into something grand, while Teft … Teft just stayed on the ground, looking up.
A: Sigh. That doesn’t need any further explanation, does it? It pretty well summarizes his chapter. It’s poignant that “looking up” is usually used in a positive light, but for Teft it’s more a matter of hopelessness, because he feels he’ll never get off the ground.
Dalinar met the young man’s eyes. “I’ve lived long enough to see the consequences of what I’ve done.”
A: As we’ll talk about below, one of the consequences of his and his ancestors’ behavior is that no one trusts the Alethi. There are, of course, other consequences as well.
Heralds: Jezrien; Jezrien & Vedel
A: For Teft’s chapter, I suggest that it’s all Jezrien for a couple of reasons. Obviously, he represents the Windrunners, which Teft is, whether he’s progressing or not. Secondarily, Teft is reflecting a lot of the inverse-Jezrien we talked about recently—the Jezrien who cannot protect or lead, because he’s lost his courage and his purpose.
Then for Dalinar’s chapter, it’s pretty easy to guess that Jezrien represents himself, as Dalinar sees him in the vision, and perhaps also Dalinar’s behavior as he protects Gawx during the battle. Vedel almost certainly is here for Lift, her little Edgedancer; perhaps, too, she reflects Lift’s relationship with Gawx.
Icons
Bridge Four (for Teft); Kholin Shield (for Dalinar)
Epigraphs
Regardless, this is not your concern. You turned your back on divinity. If Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with.
And so will you.
A: That’s rather… final, isn’t it? That’s all of what Edgli has to say in response to Hoid’s request for (presumably) help in dealing with Odium. She’s done.
L: To be fair, if he treats her the same way he does most everyone else, I don’t entirely blame her.
Cephandrius, bearer of the First Gem,
You must know better than to approach us by relying upon presumption of past relationship.
A: And now we start another letter, this one confirmed to be from Bavadin/Autonomy. We know very little about this Shard from the texts; there are a few things in Arcanum Unbounded, but most of what we have comes from WoB and the Stormlight Archive series of letters.
L: Do we know which planet they’re hailing from, at least? (Also, might be good to point out to the non-Cosmere scholars like me that Cephandrius is another of Hoid’s many names.)
A: The first planet that we can associate Bavadin with is Taldain, the world of White Sand. We know from AU that Autonomy is their Shard… and also that there’s a stringent isolation policy for Taldain, making travel to and from the planet very difficult. At the same time, for reasons unknown, Autonomy has no qualms at all about meddling with other planets, whether they “belong” to another Shard or not.
L: What about that First Gem thing? Do we know anything about that or is this the first mention of it?
A: We have one WoB saying that the First Gem is “a topaz, which was associated with [Hoid] for a long time and had some mystical properties.” In one of the early unpublished works, Hoid goes by the nickname “Topaz” as well. There’s some speculation that the First Gem may be connected to the weapon that Shattered Adonalsium and gives Hoid his immortality, but it’s only speculation at this point, based on another WoB. So many speculations, which will not be answered for so many years…
One of the most bizarre things about Bavadin is this “us” pronoun. Turns out that Bavadin manifests in many different ways, according to this WoB:
Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it’s not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.
This won’t be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.
S/he’s even worse than Shallan, apparently! The whole concept makes me question her sanity, and wonder whether she’s Splintering herself or … what.
L: I think I’ll use they pronouns for them from now on.
A: “They” is probably valid. Brandon has a tendency to use feminine pronouns, but I think that’s more habit than anything. In the realm of total wild guessing, what if Bavadin is a female dragon? Yolen dragons are able to take human form, so is it possible that the forms they can take are not tied to their original sex as a dragon? It’s a fun theory, anyway.
Beyond that, we’ll explore what Bavadin has to say directly in the upcoming weeks, and probably discuss more of the character as well. One last note: from the letter in TWoK, we know that Hoid has a grudge against Bavadin and Rayse.
Stories & Songs
Those monsters of darkness, including one that had looked just like Teft. He’d needed the moss to deal with that.
L: Interesting. I don’t remember any of the other members of Bridge 4, or any other characters, running into Dark versions of themselves—except during the showdown in the pillar room. Is Teft referring to that here, or was the Midnight Mother coming to him specifically?
A: I just assumed that he was referring to the Midnight Mother event, and was more wigged out about seeing the dark version of himself than the others were. I’m thinking of this bit, which sounds to me like what Teft is referencing:
The figures … they look like us, Shallan thought, stepping back, farther from the line of bridgemen. There was one midnight creature that looked like Teft, and another that was a copy of Lopen.
So far as we know, it didn’t bother Lopen, but he didn’t already have the issues Teft has.
Tall and confident, the man was in his thirties, and he wore white and blue. He had an Alethi feel to him, except… not quite. His skin was a shade darker, and something was faintly off about his features.
Yet there was something… familiar about the man.
…
Storms, Dalinar thought, feeling a chill. This was Jezerezeh’Elin himself, Herald of Kings. The greatest among them.
Wait. Did the king have dark eyes?
L: This is really cool to see. I also find it really interesting that the Herald of the Windrunners was the Herald of kings, given that the Windrunners seem to be one of the lower orders of Knights Radiant. They appeared to be used as scouts and messengers, so I find it really fascinating that their patron (and not, say, the patron of the Bondsmiths) held the highest place of honor.
A: I’ve never quite been able to tell where the leadership of the Heralds landed, between Jezrien and Ishar. Jezrien is the only one we know had actually been a king in “real life” before he became a Herald; other than that, the Stormfather said that Taln was the only one who “was not a king, scholar, or general,” and we don’t know who was what. Still, Jezrien has that impressive, kingly bearing, so he certainly makes a good spokesman here. On a guess, I’ll suggest that this moment happens after his conversation with Kalak from the Prelude—that he goes out from there, after they’ve all left their Honorblades, and tells the people exactly what he told Kalak they should say.
I also think it’s hilarious that Dalinar is shocked by the dark eyes.
One spot they passed had a whole heap of strange cremlings, burned and smoking.
L: Oooooh, a Dysian Amian!
A: I wonder which side he fought for—or if he was fighting at all.
“They say,” Yanagawn whispered, “that when the Sunmaker rode out of the passes and into Azir, he had one unexpected problem. He conquered my people too quickly, and didn’t know what to do with all of his captives. He couldn’t leave a fighting population behind him in the towns. There were thousands upon thousands of men he needed to murder.
“Sometimes he’d simply assign the work to his soldiers. Every man was to kill thirty captives… Before he was struck down with disease by the Heralds, he murdered ten percent of the population of Azir.”
L: This is really cool to see, because up until now—if memory serves—we’ve only seen stories of the Sunmaker from Alethi viewpoints, and they obviously revere him. This is chilling and I can absolutely understand why so many other cultures on Roshar would be hesitant about trusting Dalinar given this history. The same saying should hold true everywhere, not just in the real world—learn from history or be doomed to repeat it.
A: It’s hard to look back and remember my earlier impressions about Sunmaker before we learned this. Just like seeing what a horrible creature Dalinar was under the Thrill, it reminds us of how justified the other nations are in their reluctance to join the coalition. Alethi history has not been… gracious, shall we say?
Relationships & Romances
The young emperor, remarkably, burst into an enormous grin. “Lift! You’re back!” He started climbing up the boulder, heedless of decorum. … Yanagawn finally attained the top of the boulder and gave the younger girl a hug.
A: I just had to include this, because I love their friendship. I suspect she’s the only person in the world he feels he can really trust as himself, and in his position, he needs that someone. While she’s a little more self-sufficient—plus, she has Wyndle—I think she also kind of needs that friend who likes her just for herself.
L: And that’s only going to become more important once people start treating her like a Radiant.
Bruised & Broken
No, he wasn’t just some drunkard. He was far, far worse.
L: Oh, Teft. Teft Teft Teft. I feel such sympathy for you, my friend. It’s almost impossible to explain to people what being addicted to something is like, which leads to a lot of frustration on both sides, at least in my experience. Especially for those who love you, and are trying to help you to get better. They don’t understand why you can’t just stop, even when you know damn well you’re poisoning yourself. It’s a horrible place to be in for everyone involved, and to see Teft this deep makes my heart ache.
Reflected in the waters of the well, a face appeared over his shoulder. A woman with pale white skin, glowing faintly, and hair that hovered around her head like clouds.
“You leave me alone,” he said, slapping his hand into the water. “You just… you just go find someone who cares.”
L: He does care, he pretty much admits so later on. He doesn’t think himself worthy to be a Radiant and that’s why he’s resisting (the call to adventure ImsorryIcanthelpdoingthis).
Teft… she whispered. You’ve spoken oaths…
Foolish, stupid oaths, spoken when he’d hoped that being Radiant would remove the cravings.
L: I don’t blame him for thinking this. First of all, I don’t know anyone who is addicted to something that wouldn’t take a magical chance like that to remove the addiction simply and easily.
A: I just have to interject something here: I can totally see why he’d take the chance… but why would the spren? Clearly she saw something more than an addict in need of healing.
L: Absolutely. Just like Syl saw more than the Wretch, and Pattern saw more than a young abused and broken girl.
But aside from that, it was actually a pretty good bet that it might heal him, given how Stormlight reacts in regards to healing. And I suspect that it might be able to cure that chemical addiction. But I think Teft still sees himself as an addict, much like how Kaladin’s scars won’t heal because deep down he still sees himself as a slave. Much like in the real world, Teft can’t be cured until he truly wants to be cured.
A: To clarify a little, there’s a difference between “wanting the craving to go away” and “wanting to never use the stuff again”? So… Teft doesn’t necessarily want to never use moss again, he just wanted to not need it any more. Ouch.
L: Example. I once managed to quit smoking for over a year. I was perfectly happy not smoking, I didn’t want it all the time, I wasn’t compelled to go buy a pack—until I walked past someone and smelled the smoke on them, and immediately the craving hit again, just as badly as if I had never quit. If someone could just… remove that craving, that need from my life completely? Yeah. I’d do or pay quite a lot for that.
Teft stared at the little bowl, loathing himself. And yet the scent of it made his longing multiply tenfold.
L: All I’m gonna say is that I quit smoking (again) a week and a half ago and this is making me want a cigarette so badly, just because it’s that relatable. Bravo, Sanderson.
Like a man scrambling up wet rocks, he could barely reach where everyone else was standing before he slowly started sliding back down. It wasn’t euphoria he craved anymore; it was the mere capacity to keep going.
L: I’ve never done any hard drugs, but I’ve known people who have (heroin specifically), and this is very much how I’ve heard it described. Building up a resistance means that you need more, more often, in order to reach that same level of normalcy.
Memories of turning in his family as heretics, even though they’d been right all along.
L: Well, this is an interesting little tidbit squirreled away in here. Alice, is this the first time Teft’s mentioned this?
A: It’s not, and the backstory really explains a lot. It first comes up in his POV in TWoK, Chapter 58 (Envisager) when he’s watching Kaladin after his highstorm punishment. He thinks of “the Envisagers” as people who followed stories and legends, and who are now dead because of “what he had done.”
L: Oh yeah! I remember that now!
A: In WoR Chapter 71 (Vigil), while he and Sigzil are waiting for Kaladin to come back from his fall into the chasm, he spills the whole story. His parents were Envisagers: a sect of people who were trying to return the Knights Radiant. They would put themselves in mortal danger, on the theory that powers would be more likely to manifest in that situation. Teft’s mother died in one of those experiments, and eventually Teft turned the whole group in to the citylord. Big trial commenced, and in the end they were all executed… for risking suicide. He saw his father hanged for the crime of trying to bring back the Knights Radiant. The punishment made no sense to young Teft, but he’s spent the rest of his life feeling personally responsible for the death of his father, probably other family members, and many friends.
L: No wonder he turned to hard drugs. Jeez.
Teft made the proper noises, the ones they expected. Apologies, promises he would tell them if he was feeling the need again. Promises that he’d let them help him.
L: I know these proper noises all too well. It’s not so bad when those friends are always with you, but… the minute they’re gone…
Squires & Sidekicks
“Oh, I know it’s not a dream,” Yanagawn said. “As I am a Prime raised to the throne miraculously, the Heralds may choose to speak through me!”
L: ::eyeroll:: Good thing he’s got Lift around to bring him back down to ground, because it sure seems like everyone else around him is inflating his sense of ego.
A: Heh. I’m a little surprised to see him buying into his own press, but maybe he was longing for some kind of confirmation that he deserved the position? Definite eyeroll, though. Oy.
Places & Peoples
“Alethkar is one of the most cultured kingdoms on Roshar!”
“Your code of law is barely thirty years old!”
L: I meeeeaaaaaan he’s got a point.
“They call you Blackthorn, but you’re really more like… Dark-tan-thorn. Gawx is more black than you are, and even he’s pretty brownish.”
L: I’d just like to take a second to point out this canon verification of skin tones. Often people have a tendency, when reading fiction, to assume that the characters are the same nationality as they ourselves are (or people just assume everyone is white, because that’s the standard), and when presented with text that conflicts with that, they can skim over it and not really notice. I’ve been a victim of this myself in the past. So… here. Actual in-text (and not Word of Brandon) verification that yes, the Alethi are dark-skinned.
A: Also, that the Makabaki (Azish & the surrounding nations) are even more so—though we already knew that, of course. Look up the description of Sigzil.
“What happened in Yeddaw?” Yanagawn asked, eager.
L: If you’re not sure what he’s referring to, go read (or reread) Edgedancer!
A: And if you need a little more entertainment, go read the reread. It was fun, too. Especially the pancakes.
She had long dark hair, pale white eyes, and tan skin, though she likely wasn’t Alethi—the face was too round.
L: Wait a second. WHITE eyes?! That’s new.
A: Not just me, then? I totally don’t remember this! But it makes sense, I guess, if it’s a result of becoming an Edgedancer, right? Don’t their eyes turn the color of their order’s gemstone? So Kaladin’s eyes went blue for sapphire, and Lift’s are white for diamond. (The ones who already had light eyes don’t seem to be changing, though. What’s with that?)
L: But wouldn’t they only be doing that if she was using her powers? Kal’s only go blue when he’s summoned Syl, unless I’m mistaken…?
A: Ummm…. I thought at this point they go blue either when he’s using Stormlight or when he summons Syl, and then they fade back to dark over a couple of hours. However, I can’t find a single instance of the former. Well, when they’re in Kholinar, he summons Syl several times a day to keep his eyes light, so we know that much for sure.
L: This brings up an interesting question though… Is this a clue that in order to invade the vision she’s had to use her powers (or summon Wyndle)?
A: I wish I knew. It makes sense to me, but… that’s so far from proof that it’s not even in the same room. Does she need Wyndle to be there? We don’t see him, but maybe she does.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“I’ve lived long enough to see the consequences of what I’ve done.”
L: A very heavy, somber statement followed immediately by:
“Yeah,” a voice piped up. “You’re old.”
L: And so Lift Awesomes her way into Oathbringer!
A: Bahahahahahahaha! That is all.
L: And, of course, we have the quote which inspired the title of this section:
“He’s trying to convince me I should trust him,” Yanagawn said, pointing at Dalinar.
“Don’t,” she said. “He’d got too nice a butt.”
Dalinar cleared his throat. “What?”
“Your butt is too nice. Old guys shouldn’t have tight butts. It means you spend waaay too much time swinging a sword or punching people. You should have an old flabby butt. Then I’d trust you.”
L: Okay so… I mean… despite the utter hilarity, she’s… got a point.
A: I dunno. If he’s spent all his time swinging swords, he hasn’t spent that time learning to be devious, right? It’s the guys with the flabby butts who sit around writing diagrams that worry me.
“If someone thinks I’m strange for talking about butts, it’s usually because they’re jealous, ‘cuz I’m the only one without something rammed up mine.”
L: I want this on a t-shirt.
Weighty Words
This is not possible, the Stormfather said in Dalinar’s mind. How did she come here?
L: Thing 1: I think this is the first time we’ve seen a spren speak directly into another character’s mind. Earlier in the reread we questioned whether or not the spren have any sort of psychic link with their counterparts, and determined that they always spoke out loud—but Dalinar and the Stormfather seem to be the exception, seeing as how the Stormfather is rarely actually physically present.
A: I think it may have happened before but we didn’t realize it at the time; it would explain why there are times when the Stormfather talks in ALL CAPS and other times in italics, which has happened off and on for quite a while without me noticing it. (Yikes.) But it’s interesting to note that so far, at least, Kaladin and Shallan both have to whisper to their spren, and like visibility, there seems to be a difference in audibility. Only Kaladin hears Syl speak, but everyone hears Pattern when he hums, and Adolin most certainly heard the entire conversation about the purpose of a chaperone! We don’t know much about Jasnah or Renarin yet, or what form their communication with their respective spren looks like.
L: Thing 2:
“You didn’t bring her in?” Dalinar said softly.
No. This is not possible! How…?
L: Here we go again, with Lift mysteriously doing things that she really shouldn’t be able to do.
A: I can’t help thinking that this is somehow connected with her ability to see into the Cognitive realm. I also have to wonder if she needed to be in the highstorm area to access it.
L: She did say that she was almost back in Azir so that would make sense.
That woman! This is a creation specifically meant to defy my will!
“Woman?” Dalinar said, shaking his head.
That child is tainted by the Nightwatcher.
“Technically, so am I.”
This is different. This is unnatural. She goes too far.
L: Hmm. Interesting. Unnatural? Too far? Lift just has so many secrets swirling around her!
A: There’s always another secret.
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
“We fought together,” Yanagawn said.
“How else could we have resisted?” Dalinar said. “To fight the Desolation alone would be madness.”
A: Long ago, all the human nations fought together. Much more recently, they fought one another as the Alethi tried to take over the world. They need to return to the mentality of history so ancient it’s nearly forgotten. We know that, and Dalinar knows that… but the other monarchs don’t know that. Recent history is much stronger in shaping motivation than something that’s not much more than legend.
Quality Quotations
“I sold it,” Teft admitted, squeezing his eyes shut against the shamespren that drifted down around him, in the shape of flower petals. “I sold my own storming coat.”
A: This isn’t so much a favorite as it is just a note that this will turn out to be Significant later.
“I will lead the charge for the Tranquiline Halls,” the man shouted. “You will not see me again,… You have won your peace. … Carry with you the light of your Herald king’s words. We are victorious, at long last, over evil!”
A: Wow, is that ever full of lies! One after another. No Tranquiline Halls, they’ll see him hanging around Kholinar as a drunk beggar, the peace is now gone, the Herald king’s words are darkness, and they are not victorious over evil. Not yet.
“But—” Dalinar said, raising his hand.
“See, you’re learning.” She grinned at him.
Next week is Moash’s chapter (::siiiiiiiiiigh::). We’ll be covering that (do we have to?) perhaps with a special guest, and also Chapter 43, to get the bad taste of burgeoning betrayal out of our mouths. As always, join us in the comments for more discussion!
Alice is fighting a cold and also on the verge of back-to-school. That’s literally all she’s got to say for herself. ::sniffle::
Lyndsey is heading into NYC on Thursday, want to place any bets as to whether she can avoid wandering into the Fashion District to drop another hundred dollars on fabric? If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
This is Brandon Sanderson writing. I’m now convinced that this is at least partly true, and at least one Herald actually will speak through Yanagawm at some point. Also worth mentioning that he and Szeth share the distinction of being dead and restored by Stormlight. Or should I write “Returned”, Edgli?
Stormfather sure has a habit of saying things that are happening are impossible, doesn’t he?
No, he isn’t, but he doesn’t quite know that.
In the Singing Storm section, you have the pictures for chapters 40 and 41 instead of 41 and 42.
@1: Or Gawx becomes a Herald 2.0. Why not?
When Syl is in blade form, she’s able to speak directly into Kaladin’s mind.
@necessary_eagle, consider that Gawx died (or at least was on the point of death) and was healed. Since the term is so poorly-defined, does that make him “broken” in the Spiritweb sense? I think it probably does.
Now that I think about it, the original Oathpact included 9 kings, scholars and generals. Yanagawm is a king. (And Dalinar and Adolin both generals, and Jasnah and Navani (and Venli!) and technically Shallan are scholars ….)
Gawx doesn’t trail behind himself the way Szeth does, so I think he was significantly less dead before being healed. Probably still within reach of our modern medicine had a 21st century ambulance appeared in the palace.
In addition to what @@.-@ said, Syl will also speak telepathically to Kaladin on the honorspren ship in Shadesmar. That happens after Kaladin attracts the windspren by being all honorable and stuff.
I most heartily agree the friendship between Gawn and Lift is very important for the both of them and their development. I think it will be wonderful to watch them both grow and mature together.
I agree that Teft sees himself as an addict so that is part of the reason it will not heal, but I think an additional part is you can heal the chemical part of an addiction but not the psychological part. When I used to smoke, I would have one or two cigarettes during the week, but if I was out at a party I would go through a whole pack. I realized later it was due to my social anxiety being around a large group of people in a loud setting. In the beginning I could be personable and conversational, but eventually I would feel so drained that I would unconsciously feel anxious and want to leave. The ability to have an excuse to step out of the party for a smoke coupled with the calming ritual of bringing the cigarette to my mouth, inhaling slowly, and exhaling slowly is what kept bringing me back for more. One day I took a drag on a cigarette and for some reason the taste it left in my mouth was so bad that I began to associate smoking with that sensation rather than the calming one. By focusing on that, I have never had a cigarette since. Now I am not saying that is a solution for everyone, but the experience was very informative for me.
Um, I am only seeing the Herald depictions and chapter title for chapter 40? This should be a mistake, right?
Anyway, for the record, I don’t believe that Teft’s spren is Phendorana – we have seen both Syl and Ivory assume human-size shapes, there is no reason to think that it is in any way unique.
Concerning Jezrien – I suspect that there was quite a bit of mix-up over the years changing “Herald who was a King”, which he definitely was into “King of Heralds”, i.e. the most important of them all. From everything we have heard so far, Ishar was closer to being their overall leader and, of course, some countries on Roshar worship Kalak over all of them for some reason and mis-identify him with the Stormfather. Let me once again express my disappointment that female Heralds are apparently largely dismissed by Rosharans as being of less importance than the guys. Certainly none of them is worshipped as supreme anywhere. And the info that we have on them is much more obscure, too.
Anyway, speaking of who was tainted by the Nightwatcher, didn’t Odium detect that Lift was touched by Cultivation? He even freaked out and disappeared. Interesting, that the Stormfather only connects her to the Nightwatcher, here.
Re: eye-color, IIRC when Dalinar visits Azir, he thinks that Lift’s eyes are very pale grey, which would make sense, as there are some Edgedancer blades around, but no white-eyed lighteyes. Her eyes are white when she uses stormlight, IIRC. And I have to wonder if Kaladin’s eyes turniong back so often have to do with his self-perception, like the scars and if other Radiants won’t become light-eyed sooner than he because of it. Do Lift’s eyes turn dark anymore?
Oh, and even back in the past there were would-be world conquerors – Nohadon, for one, before he wised up.
We have one WoB saying that the First Gem is “a topaz, which was associated with [Hoid] for a long time and had some mystical properties.” In one of the early unpublished works, Hoid goes by the nickname “Topaz” as well.
So that’s what “Wit” alluded to about having once been named after a rock, or something like that.
I don’t rmember Lift previously having “a thing about butts.” She mentioned them occasionally, e.g. thinking passerby stayed at a distance from “Darkness” as if he was “a man whose backside couldn’t help but tell everyone what he had been eating recently.” But I don’t recall any particular fixation. She reserves that for food.
Still, it’s fun to see Dalinar get subjected to sheer irreverance. Not hate or scorn based on what he’s done, but outspoken unimpressed-ness, reminiscent of Syl teasing ultra-serious Kaladin. And fun to see both Dalinar and the Stormfather be shocked.
I feel like this chapter is what led some to suspect Teft was bonded to (bonding) the main honorspren (I forget her fancy name). The way she is described here makes me think she is more human sized rather than a miniature woman like Syl. For instance, “Reflected in the waters of the well, a face appeared over his shoulder.” Note that only her face is over his shoulder, like if another person was looking over your shoulder. It’s not “she appeared hovering over/resting on his shoulder” as Syl would be described with Kaladin. And only one honorspren has been described as being human sized with the other spren flitting around her. Take it for what it’s worth.
Edit: A case of writing this before @9 posted, but putting it up after… when do we see Syl being human sized outside of the cognitive realm? Ivory isn’t a strong counter case as he is a different spren type and the types appear very different from each other in both the physical and cognitive realms. Not saying I’m right or that it’s conclusive. But I think this example is part of why people assumed it was Phendorana (thanks for the fancy name!).
I had never noticed the color comment about Lift’s eyes. I do take that to mean she must be actively using her power to access the dream. White eyes would be so creepy. Even worse than red eyes.
As far a skin color goes, I feel like I get trapped into the clothes and matching them to our world. For instance, I’ve pictured the Alethi looking like middle eastern peoples of earth (the eyes notwithstanding) because there have been enough descriptions of their hair and skin. But, despite having the Azish being described as darker, I still picture them as middle eastern, too because the descriptions of buildings, government officials and clothing make me think of Aladdin. Hmm, so maybe Indian would have been a better match. Darker skin but still some of those other cultural descriptions. Further, I know that Rock and his people’s description makes them sound Irish, but I have a hard time separating that description from picturing them as Polynesian based on language and other factors. Finally, I feel like the Shin are probably the most similar to what we think of as “white” on earth, but their naming always makes me picture east Asian. Interesting cognitive dissonance caused by Sanderson. Which is good. It’s a whole different world. It would actually be weirder to have other cultures so closely mirror earth’s, unlike Wheel of Time which still was earth just in a different time. (of course, even in that there was some blending, but I feel like you could pick out which cultures Robert Jordan was basing the people on) But, the tendency to take one characteristic and use that to try to match a nation to an earth one is a quick way to make things relatable and easy to picture. And, I think it’s why so many people are fixated on most people of Roshar looking east Asian because of the eye thing, even though the skin descriptions done seem to imply that. Maybe some people think of Asians as tan, but I don’t. I feel like tan or dark tan matches better to Hispanic and Mediterranean. Maybe native American. Hmm… some native Americans have the epicanthal fold, have dark tan skin, black hair, etc. Maybe the Alethi are better pictured as Native American.
@11 – Syl has appeared human sized several times. The first, I think, was in TWoK when Kaladin decides to go back to help Dalinar escape the Tower. She appeared human-sized and told him that she finally remembered that she was an honorspren.
After finishing OB the first time, I had no clue as to how Lift was able to enter those visions. After re-reading the book, I still have no clue.
I thought the woman that the Stormfather was referring to was Cultivation, not the Nightwatcher. I do not think the Stormfather would refer to another spren (even one such as the Nightwatcher) as “that woman.” Just a gut feeling.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@9 Isilel
True, though I feel this is a bit of Chekov’s gun. We do not have much to back it up, but I am of the camp it is Phendorana. But I understand that you think differently.
Regarding Jezerien, true it could be distorted over the centuries but we do have it from the horses mouth as it were (in this case being the Herald Kalak). The prelude in Way of Kings.
Way of Kings page 16
Jezerien’s voice was calm, deep, regal. Though he hadn’t worn a crown in centuries, his royal manner lingered. He always seemed to know what to do.
Way of Kings page 16
Kalak looked into the immortal king’s eyes.
Way of Kings page 17
The king of Heralds offered no further explanation (this is from Kalak’s PoV)
Edit: to add, I think the reason why Ishar seems to be leading things now is because Jezerien has become an unreliable drunk. Nale refers to him with derision. This would be supported by the theory about the madness of heralds. Ishar’s ideals are pious and guiding. Instead he is being blasphemous and controlling.
@13 AndrewHB
Hmmm that is an interesting point. Not sure I agree nor disagree but it is something to think on. Spren do have genders, but off the top of my head I do not recall spren referring to each other as male or female. I need to check the scene with Notum and see how he refers to Syl.
Edit: confirmed that Notum referred to Syl as a she, though as I think about it, that would not preclude the oddity of the Stormfather referring to another spren as a “woman” which would be more a term for a human than a spren to me. Hmmm.
@lyndsey. I wish you well on your quest to give up cigarettes. I quit 2 years ago (slowly weaning myself off of the addiction by switching to a vape pen and reducing the amount of nicotine little by little by little). After a while those random cravings really do go away.
Journey before inhalation.
Unpopular opinion: I don’t think Lift’s quips are that funny. One of those Sanderson/humor mismatches for me. (I do find both Pattern and Wyndle hilarious).
The other thing is that as Alice points out, the butt/trustworthy correlation really doesn’t even make sense and I’m too pedantic to let that go :)
I do really love the Lift + Gawx teamup – they both need each other.
Random crack pot theory with nothing concrete to back it up. Gawn becomes a squire of Lift and eventually becomes an Edgedancer in his own right! Just felt the need to share that so if I end up being right, I totally called it lol.
I want to know how Lift knew there even was a vision to join. Was it an accident, or did she go there on purpose?
@18 my assumption when I read the book (which could be wrong) was that Lift had arrived physically I’m Gawx’s presence while he was trapped in the vision. She sensed that he wasn’t just asleep thanks to her magic or Wyndle’s and then used his material realm presence to piggyback into the vision.
Edited to add: one point I want to clarify, in this scenario she would have arrived in the palace right before the storm and not reached Gawx until after he fell asleep.
At least I am not the only one who does not find Lift all that funny/charming. She seems to be willfully stupid on most things, even with Wyndle,stupid Voidbringer. Anyway, with the eye color thing, Are there any more examples of Radiants eyes matching their respective gemstones?
I, too, don’t really find Lift that funny. Maybe it’s the juvenile humor. Or maybe it’s because her humor feels anachronistic. Every time I see the word “awesome,” it really throws me off.
Lift says she isn’t quite back yet, only close. She probably got caught in a Highstorm and was drawn into the vision because of her connection to the spren realm.
I also agree that Lift, like Lopen, is one of Brandon’s failed attempts to be funny.
I’m not bothered by the idea in OB that spren and Shards could be both/either male or female or just be using that so humans could relate to them. It doesn’t seem to stand out that much to me in the writing. I was caught by surprize when reading Ancillary Justice by Ann Leacke at how using the feminine noun as the default jarred my mind.
Lift is pretty funny for me. It’s interesting to see her called “juvenile”. Of course she is. She’s literally juvenile!
I don’t think Lift is all that funny in those in-world conversations anymore than I think Shallan is, but they’re both very purposeful in their “humor” so I understand*. I think she’s a very enjoyable character though, so I’ve never had a problem. I do get exasperated by her answers to Wyndle.
And poor Teft. I think his arc is one of the most poignant in this book. It will always be one of my favorite parts of this book.
*I actually don’t know if Sanderson does humor well in Cosmere books other than Wit, Wayne and maybe Syl. At least in terms of in-world conversation. He does it well in the Steelheart trilogy though.
Gawx thinking he can have visions because he’s the Prime is almost as funny as the over-the-top kid humor of Lift. I hope for his own pride that sometime in the series he gets one; but then would anyone believe him? I find Lift funny in the same way I find my 5yr old funny: sure it’s silly and not very smart, but enjoy it while it lasts. I’m sure Lift will eventually have to start growing up and we won’t have the butt jokes anymore.
Also, I hope Teft can beat his addiction. As someone who doesn’t have that struggle, I can’t say I know how that feels, but it sounds terrible. (Good luck on your journey Lyn as well.)
I found the Cosemere books, collectively, to be some of the funniest fantasy I’ve read as an adult. I’m partial to their wealth of snarky dialogue. It’s definitely YMMV.
I found the butt joke less funny than most of what I’ve seen Lift say, but to me she remains The Best Ever.
@27 AeronaGreenjoy
Maybe I explained it poorly, as I don’t disagree. I meant more of the “this person is constantly snarking / comedian territory.” That’s probably not really fair to Lift though. I think Joyspren using “silly” to describe Lift is kind of perfect.
re: Jezrien as king of the heralds
I don’t know why, but I have the impression from somewhere that Jezrien was the one who first organized the Heralds or came up with Oathpact. That could certainly put him as their leader (spiritually if nothing else).
Lift’s introduction had me cackling with delight.
@10: I don’t think anyone has been unimpressed by Dalinar for decades, which is precisely why having Dalinar be the first main SA character to encounter Lift (outside of the Interludes and Edgedancer) was such genius. She couldn’t care less about Dalinar’s status.
I do hope we get a scene where Dalinar and Teft encourage each other in their addiction battles, or something like that.
Bavadin is Shallan taken to the logical extreme.
I find it kinda hilarious, in a really horrible way, that Sunmaker literally decimated Azir.
Also, nice foreshadowing there with Jezrien looking fmailair to Dalinar. Given how drunk off his ass he was, it’s no wonder he doesn’t recognize his drinking buddy.
I’m pretty sure Gawx was being sarcastic to Dalinar. After all, he’s Lift’s friend.
Pretty sure we got Syl talking in Kaladin’s mind in sword form during the climax of he last book, so it definitely predates the Stormfather talking directly to Dalinar’s mind.
Alice/Moderators: I’m surprised to see that the chapter heading images are still not fixed; usually that happens pretty fast after someone points it out (which Necessary_Eagle did at #2, above).
Put me on the list of readers who think Lift is hilariously funny (and The Lopen is too). And to me, her irreverent interaction with Dalinar here makes the scene near the end so much more poignant – where, after the battle at Thaylen City, she’s seen with her hand on his shoulder, comforting him as he weeps. Lift is a truly deep character; I look forward to her flashback book with high anticipation.
When Dalinar thought there was something “familiar” about Jezrien in the vision, does that mean the Herald’s face rang a bell but he didn’t fully put it together with his old drinking buddy? What a tragic figure is the King of the Heralds – – what we learned about him in OB makes me wish we could have gotten to know him better.
Ishar is the author of the Oathpact, not Jezrien.
Dalinar’s surprise at Jezrien’s eye color reminded me of a bit in WoK, where Dalinar is thinking about how Renarin just needs to find a Calling and Glory– a Glory being an attribute of the Almighty– because he thinks “The Almighty would accept that, particularly if you were lighteyed– the better your blood as a lighteyes, the more innate Glory you had.” Dalinar does carry some prejudices about the superiority of lighteyes.
I don’t think Gawx’s belief that the Herald’s might speak through him is too outlandish. This is a world where Gavilar got visions about the impending Desolation, and Dalinar eventually did too. There might actually have been a time when the Heralds would go directly to the world leaders in times of crisis. There probably is a seed of truth to Azish belief.
Count me too amongst those who love Lift. Too much Lift would drive me up a wall (as would too much Lopen). I enjoyed the bits of her here. But, is her ability to party crash the vision Bondsmith level power? Stormfather gets so grumpy he simply abandons Dalinar there, who has to then wait out the end of the vision before he can leave, which implies the need for a Stormfather-level spren in order to get out of the vision as Lift does. I don’t think she is actually a Bondsmith, but Stormfather’s grumbling makes me think she is something new, because Cultivation is trying new ways of ding things. I think that’s why Stormfather grumbled about Lift being “unnatural”, because this hasn’t been done this way before and Stormfather hates change.
Re: the chapter artwork – Most of the time the moderators will catch and correct something like that if it’s mentioned in the comments, but it’s always worth flagging the comment where you mention it. (Mark it as “Technical.”) They keep an eye on the comments in general, but they always look at comments that are flagged. Just saying you’ll get their attention faster that way. (ETA: They had a big party in NYC today for Tordotcom’s 10th anniversary, so they just might have been slightly distracted. Lyn was able to be there, so that’s awesomely cool – and I’m not at all jealous. Oh, wait. Yes, I am!)
About Lift’s humor… as others have said, she’s thirteen years old. Of course her humor is juvenile. Anything else would be bad writing. In much the same way, Shallan’s humor is appropriate to her age and her background, grating as that may be to some people – both in and out of the book. It’s not a “failed attempt at humor” if the author successfully created a realistic portrayal of the character he intended. We don’t all share the same sense of humor, and so of course Lift’s silliness will grate on some readers – just like it would if you knew her in real life. Speaking only for myself, I think the immature humor grates less because I see it as part of the portrayal. Whether or not I find it particularly funny, I find it a good characterization, and so I appreciate what he’s done with it.
I wonder just how different this Desolation will be compared to the previous ones. While the overall scope of the conflict is the same many of the details are different. Odium has more things in his favor than in previous clashes. Fighting 1 and a half Shards instead of 2, the Heralds are neutralized, the KR aren’t ready and 2 Orders are in full revolt, his immortal troops revive every 9 days and he has a mole on the other side. Not to mention with the Hierocracy the opposition has only fractured records of the previous clashes; Dalinar’s squad will have a difficult time learning from the mistakes made in the past.
All isn’t lost for our heroes though. Dalinar has a mole of his own, spren are bonding with Singers now, they have valuable lessons in neutralizing the Unmade, humans have advanced fabrial tech and are on the whole more technologically advanced than at any time in the history of Roshar. And if Culti takes a more active role than it seems she did before then just maybe some new powers will emerge. Lyft butting in to Honor’s visions are slightly indicative of this. Makes it hard to wait for SA4 and beyond.
@37:
Who is Dalinar’s mole? Venli bonding with Timbre, or Renarin bonding with Glys? I think both could be Dalinar’s moles actually.
This Desolation could be really different because of two more things:
1) The Diagram – which could be Cultivation playing a really long game, since it was the Nightwatcher that Taz asked for help. She’s already shown she can do that with pruning Dalinar.
2) Hoid. I don’t think he was around for previous Desolations? If he’s around for this one then everything could change, right?
Gaz if this forum had upvotes I would surely send you one. Good point with Renarin and Glys. That means 3 moles then if Sja-Anat is what she seems and is truly trying to defect.
Of all the characters playing the long game surely Hoid is playing the longest.
@Gaz, we don’t know whether Hoid was around during previous Desolations but it’s a good bet. He knows one of the Fused well enough to dance with her, so either he was on Roshar for a Desolation or he visited Damnation and they hold dances there ….
That Malata is a traitor doesn’t mean her whole order is on team Odium. And while Nale has chosen the opposite side Szeth might not be the only Skybreaker who choses to fight against Odium. They don’t necessarily all follow Nale, some might have chosen laws to follow that make then team Honor.
What drew my curiosity, this week, was Alice/Lyndsey speaking of the Windrunners as one of the “lesser order”.
It made me tick because I always assumed it was the opposite, I always assumed the Windrunners were up there, within the Radiant’s hierarchy. Hence, when they spoke of them as mere scouts and messengers, this more or less disagreed with how I had picture them. Giving this some more thoughts, I thought perhaps it does make sense given, despite strong fighting abilities, the Windrunners seem to struggle with warfare. We see it with Kaladin, he becomes catatonic the moment he is unable to clearly view which side he is fighting for and, as soon as he loses one man, he is rendered useless and unable to operate. He is unable to move, to stay cold headed, to not grief now. Hence, after finishing OB, I thought, for sure, Kaladin would never be able to lead a military charge, I thought he should not lead a military charge, not until he is able to work his way around his issues. Thus, it makes sense Windrunners perhaps preferred being scouts, messengers and bodyguard over real fighting, but reading them being described as one of the “lesser order” is a novelty for me.
On Teft, well I too wondered why his spren chose him. I however have no problems picturing him wanting the easy way out and/or thinking magic would cure his addiction without him needing to actually, well, work on getting rid of it. I think anyone battling with an addiction thinks along those lines, at some point. It is incredibly natural and realistic to do so as how does one even begin to battle an addiction? I fear there are no right answers, but at least, Teft here, seems to end the book in the mindset he will need to find a way to work around it. So there’s that.
On the matter of skin tones, just like @11, I always pictured Alethi as Middle-Eastern/Mediterranean though Native always were a strong contender. Those two ethnicities seem to be the ones sharing the most characteristics with the textual description of the characters. Middle-Eastern/Mediterranean people can have wavy hair and tan skin. Light eyes and/or eyes also are possibilities so given the ambiguity of many characters descriptive (one Alethi lord had a sunburn in WoK, Kaladin’s hair are wavy, Sadeas has a red face and curly hair), it did feel like the best pick.
As for the other ethnicity, I pictures the Azish as Indians, the Makabaki as African (Sigzil), the Veden/Horneaters (Shallan/Rock) as Scotish, the Riran as Caucassian (Evi) and Szeth, well, I view him as a prettier, less messed up, version of…. Gollum…. :-O
Ah and I don’t know if many saw it, but someone recently asked Brandon who he would see playing Kaladin. He didn’t have an answer, but he had a Dalinar: Dave Bautista. Brandon felt his mixed origins made him suitable to play an Alethi and though the man had the right physical built to play Dalinar. Now, this isn’t an actor I would have think of picking, but I was nonetheless pleased with the choice. I have often said I felt Dalinar’s physical built was his most defining characteristic, he is often described as “imposing”, hence seeing the author pick an actor which fits with how I have viewed him just made me smile. Of course, the actor doesn’t have the facial features I had envisioned, but I’ll admit those are heavily influenced by fan art.
On Lift, while I really enjoyed Edgedancer, I was partial over her in OB. I know many readers enjoyed her interactions with Dalinar, but it felt to me I was reading two characters from two different narratives. It was… odd. Something just didn’t work so well for me here. I don’t think it is her humor nor her age which bothers me, I honestly cannot say what it was, but Dalinar/Lift, not my favorite scenes.
I just now realized that Shallan has garnet red eyes while using stormlight.
And Dalinar would have topaz yellow eyes = Golden Eyes. Uh… Perrin always was his favorite from WoT. Dalinar is his main favorite in SA.
We might have to rethink this with all the Red eyes that happen later in the book with Odium…
The KR with Garnet and Ruby’s as colors obviously known that not red-eye creatures are bad.
I’m with Alice @35: While the joke might not be my type of humor – often they make me groan – They fit the character and the world.
One of my friends has a real hard time with Shallan always being called “clever.” He doesn’t find her comments and jokes clever. Wanted to know if Brandon thought she really was “that smart.” Brandon’s response was that he’s using Shallan and her word play to highlight what the Culture thinks is clever and smart. What the Alethi value.
So no, it’s not for everyone. Humor never is. Much like puns. Some people LOVE them. Others can’t stand them.
Honestly, even after rereading her PoVs, I still don’t see much references to Lift and butts before this chapter. So her “thing about butts” hit me from the blue.
@42 – I don’t think lighteyes will have their eyes change color. Here is a WoB about Shallan’s eyes:
Carl @39 – I assumed that Hoid danced with the original of that Fused before she died the first time – like, he was there before the Desolations started.
Gepeto @41 – “Szeth, well, I view him as a prettier, less messed up, version of…. Gollum….” I’m dying over here!! Absolutely priceless description. I’m going to be giggling all day. :D
Braid_Tug @42 – “Brandon’s response was that he’s using Shallan and her word play to highlight what the Culture thinks is clever and smart. What the Alethi value.” We’re going to get into this eventually, but I was just reading some later chapters last night while looking for something else. Evi really highlights some of the quirks of Alethi society, because she gives an outsider’s perspective. She talks about “fitting in” (or not!) with the Alethi women:
The mere fact that Shallan can almost always find a quick comeback that’s not completely lame is a mark of cleverness for them, no matter how it might grate on someone who doesn’t like that sort of social interaction.
It’s going to be interesting to see what he ends up doing with eye color as things go on. What will happen to a darkeyes who becomes a Lightweaver or a Dustbringer, assuming that lighteyes simply don’t change eye color? (I’d been wondering if Renarin’s eyes were going to change from blue to green, but maybe not?)
@several – I’m totally NOT seeing Teft’s spren as Phendorana. A lot would have to have changed between the time she stood watching the bridgemen (not including Teft, since he was… elsewhere) and this scene, which is only six days later. It simply doesn’t make sense to me. Right now he seems resistant to progressing in the Ideals, and yet in Chapter 119, he’ll say the third Ideal. It’s just possible that he said the first Ideal in the past week, and will say the second in the upcoming weeks, so that he can say the third in just over a (Rosharan) month, but it seems unlikely to me. YMMV.
I have to say, Lift’s use of the word “butt” was jarring to me here. Not only does no one else is SA say “butt” AFAIK, but neither does Lift previously. It feels too childish for a hardened street urchin.
I know that Brandon doesn’t like using real-world profanities, but he managed to write a whole novella about Lift while keeping it PG-13. Edgedancer‘s Lift felt a lot more true to me. Still obviously sanitized, but… I don’t know… sanitized in a way that felt coarse without actually being that coarse. “Butt” just sounds sheltered. The fact she’s described in the narration at one point of yelling a string of top-tier obscenities just clashes with how relatively tame her actual dialogue is in OB. (Unless the palace staff are trying to get her to stop using really bad words by teaching her rude but more socially acceptable ones, because they’ve learned from experience that trying to get her to be outright polite is a losing battle. Okay, this may now be my headcanon).
On a similar note, I also had a problem with “deevy”. Lift falls prey to what I call “sudden vocabulary syndrome”- when an author comes up with a cool word two or three books in, and suddenly everyone is acting like they’ve always said it.
I usually find Lift witty and wise, as well as brave, compassionate, and other good things. She’s my hero and I wish I was more like her.
@44: LOL. I’m glad someone thought it was funny! When Lyndsey mentioned how we sometimes have some biases when we envision book characters (we certainly do, myself the first), this came up as one of them. Of course, Szeth isn’t as sickly pale and feeble as Gollum, but I have to admit the Szeth art does seem to depict him within ways which did make me think of, well, Gollum.
And it doesn’t help this imagery Szeth now has Nightblood… I keep picture him, crouching next to Nightblood, patting it while saying: “Sword nimi, my preeeeecious.”.
On wordplay being an Alethi thing, well, I do remember, during the WoR re-read, when you, Alice, expressed your anger at seeing people take advantage of Adolin’s lack of ability with it, using it to make fun of him. I did feel this Evi excerpt correlates to those previous statements… Everything is a competition to the Alethi, even talking: you can’t have a conversation with a woman without her trying to demonstrate her superior wit. This also comes back within Adolin’s relationships and his later comment to Kaladin: “I forget you talk like a girl”. All of those elements do fit one within another and draw an interesting perspective of Alethi court life.
I also can’t express how sorry and sad I feel for Evi: she truly had no friends. She was so lonely! All she gave up to join the Kholin family, why? *Sigh* We may never know.
I found the depiction of addiction to be really simplistic and inaccurate. People are likening this to cigarettes, which for the most part don’t interfere with one’s ability to work and interact with people. I thought this was supposed to be a harder sort of substance, something illegal. The addicts I know don’t spend a lot of time focusing on how they are letting their loved ones down. They feel completely entitled to their use of whatever substance and are furious and defensive at any person or consequence that arises as a result of its use. They feel they are more productive when using despite all evidence to the contrary. They feel any actions they take to facilitate their drug use are justified and necessary. I didn’t see any evidence of this with Teft.
@48
There is more than one response to addiction. Teft’s depiction seemed accurately portrayed to me based upon my experiences in dealing with addicts. I know that it varies from person to person. I’ve known people who act in the way you’ve observed, mostly with people who had no desire to quit. I’ve also seen people who felt like Teft; generally speaking these are people who have been through rehabilitation a couple times. It’s a question of denial versus self-reflection. Often an addict lives in denial until the addictive behavior results in a major loss or a series of major losses. An addict usually doesn’t begin to look inward until they reach rock bottom. Until they reach that point they avoid looking at the detrimental effects the drug has made their lives and the role it has to play. Some people will avoid looking at the detrimental effects of their chemical dependency even when they hit rock bottom, refusing to face the consequences of their actions even after they’ve lost everything they care about. Again, depends on the person.
Szeth can’t be prettier than Gollum. Nobody can be prettier to me than my beloved Gollum. ♥️ Nobody non-aquatic, anyway.
This story has a terrible paucity of aquatic things, but somehow I love it anyway. The snarking is just that good.
@Alice, #44, on the First Ideal: Teft taught that one to Kaladin, and all of Bridge Four recited it together. His parents might have had Teft take that one as a child, if you think about it, but he certainly would have said the Immortal Words at the same time as Lopen and the rest.
On eye color: so when a darkeyes learns to use Stormlight (gaseous Investiture), color drains away from her eyes? Gee, Edgli, does that sound anything like the Nalthis system of Investiture in which Breath use drains color from something?
Now that I think about it, Nightblood drains color from its wielder when it is drawn, which I believe is the only known time Awakening drains people instead of inanimate objects. Vivenna’s Shardblade doesn’t do that, we see her draw and use it without issues, so it’s different from Nightblood.
We only see Vivenna use her blade on Roshar. If it “eats” Investiture like Nightblood, it would draw Stormlight, not Breath. I don’t remember Szeth drawing Nightblood, it might not drain any color on Roshar, either.
@49 – that may be. However, the little I know about Sanderson’s personal life suggests it’s more likely he has misunderstood addiction than that he has accurately portrayed someone that far along in their recovery – particularly when doing so would be a narrative decision that robs the reader of the most compelling portion of Teft’s journey. The Teft pov’s really made OB as a whole feel weak to me.
I’m not sure that spending the pages necessary to chronicle the complete addiction and recovery cycle of an at best tertiary character would have been the correct narrative decision. YMMV.
I agree with @54. I think we got enough background to understand Teft’s addiction problems without diminishing them. We also have to take into consideration he was sober for a time, while being a bridgeman, so what we read seems more like a relapsed. The bottom of the barrel, I think this was probably him being sent to the bridge crew, so yes, he was already trying to paddle back up.
I don’t think Brandon showed he misunderstood addition and how crippling they can be nor the various ways they can express themselves within individuals, but Teft is a fairly minor character. He was not the character to spend endless pages fleshing out. With Dalinar, he spent more time fleshing out his alcohol addiction and we do see him refusing to admit he has a problem, not wanting to work on it, not understanding why everyone is making a big deal out it, not seeing how negative and cruel his behavior was to his sons up until he reaches rock bottom which is when Renarin gives him the bottle. I thought this was nicely done. I can extrapolate Teft went to a similar process: when we read him, he already knows he has a problem, he wants to solve it, he just thinks the easy way out will work, IMHO.
@52 – Szeth drew Nightblood twice in OB. The first time was when he dealt with that corrupt prison official as part of his Skybreaker training. The second was at the battle for Thaylen City. Lift had to help with Nightblood or Szeth would have been toast. I believe Szeth’s hands are drained of color.
#54, #56: As Austin says, Szeth drew Nightblood and he drained the wielder’s personal Investiture (just as he would on Nalthis), decoloring Szeth and turning his skin gray. And it did the same thing to Lift, who now has gray streaks on her arms. Note that Lift (unlike anyone else ever) has the strength of will to stop Nightblood’s draining her. That “halfway in the Cognitive Realm” thing apparently makes her so strongly Invested that she’s more powerful than a Returned on Nalthis. And they‘re Slivers of Endowment.
The gray skin thing is really interesting now that I think about it. That’s Endowment’s magic as moderated by Nalthis, why the heck would Awakening-type color drain work on Roshar? Rosharian humanoids don’t even have Breath, theoretically.
Waiiiiit … Lift is halfway in the Cognitive Realm? If she went to Sel would she be constantly blinded by the remains of Dominion’s and Devotion’s power (the Dor), which Odium by WoB stuffed into the Cognitive Realm to get it out of the way?
Note also: Vivenna/Azure does not seem to have an aluminum sheath for her Shardblade, IIRC, which is absolutely needed if you don’t want Nightblood to eat everyone nearby.
Regarding the first gem, This comes from the second letter, from Frost to Hoid:
“Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?” is the first gem the same as the gemstone mentioned here? I wonder what it is and how it died, does he mean it went dun?
Carl @51 – Teft didn’t speak the First Ideal when the rest of Bridge Four did in Chapter 37, because he wasn’t there… but Phendorana was. That’s why I said he’d have had to say it in the past week to bond her. If he’d spoken it earlier, as part of bonding a spren, his spren would hardly have been standing there watching Bridge Four out at Narak while Teft was passed out in Urithiru. I don’t know when he began his bonding process; I’m just pretty well convinced he’s not bonding Phendorana. My guess is that his bonding began before Part 2, while Kaladin was off doing recon, but that’s just my opinion.
StormLord @58 – Don’t we wish we knew the answer to that! If it’s the same gem, I don’t think it would be referring merely to holding Stormlight. But… I personally have no clue what it means.
Unrelated question but something that has always bothered me – on what basis do people say Randland is earth? I have never seen good textual evidence for this.
Anyway on this section put me down as people who enjoy lift – as for Butt not being strong enough I think that may be perception. Some people (especially here in the South) find it terrible. Certainly their are worse words but those don’t even bear mentioning and might as well not exist for these individuals.
It may be that to Sanderson Butt is a top tier curse word. ((Also I don’t think the scene would be nearly as funny if a harsher word was used))
dwcole @60: Most of the clues require you to take RJ’s word that the WoT is set on Earth in a different era; one of the conceits of the series is that the legends of the WoT era are things from our present. Here are the examples I remember off the top of my head:
Mosk = Moscow (Russia), Lance of fire = ICBMs, Elsbet = Elizabeth I of Britain; Materese of Ind = Mother Theresa of India
Lenn = John Glenn, mixed with the Apollo 11 crew; Salya = Sally Ride
Ann Landers
The Mercedes-Benz logo
Moscow (Russia), America, and their ICBMs
Wow. I have read WOT more times than I can count and never caught the modern references. Merlin and Authur, Galahad and Gawain, the references to Thor and Odin and of course Shaitan, I got those but I guess ya learn something new everyday.
@62: It is commonly assumed the First Age was “our time”, a time before the discovery of magic followed by the Utopia, the perfect world, the perfect society, the Age of Legends.
There are also talks of how Lews Therin took a tamed sport, fencing, and learned how to kill with it. Talks of how Lews Therin had to read into very, very old books to figure out what war was. Something along those lines.
The reference to Mosk and Merk with their lances of fire refers to the Cold War. It was a very clever way to show how today’s news ended being turned into legends within a distant future.
Decades before dystopian became fashionable, Robert Jordan had his own ideas. Instead of creating the post-apocalyptic future, he created the perfect one which crashes onto itself once human nature catches back with reality.
I find it incredible how avant-gardist WoT was considering the first tome was written in 1985.
Lift is the best
@57 Carl
That is an interesting question. How would Sel’s destructive cognitive realm interact with Lift? Then again we would also need to ask what state is Sel’s cognitive realm in by the time Lift is a thing? Could the issues have been resolved? Made worse? Or still the same? Very interesting indeed.
@59 Wetlandernw
I see what you are saying, and you make excellent points but I feel we do not know enough about the process of spren bonding and swearing of oaths to completely rule it out (the huge difference between the way and speed Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, and Szeth bonded for instance). I understand you do not buy it, and I respect that. Personally I think Teft bonding Phendorana is still on the table.
Just think, only two more years until we find out the name of Teft’s spren! Assuming, of course, that the author considers it important enough to even mention. Storm it!
@66 nightheron
Boy are you optimistic! Didn’t Oathbringer take around 2 years to write and, as far as we know, he hasn’t started book 4 yet (outside of possibly some outlining).
As far as I know, he plans to start writing SA4 in January-ish, and it will take however long it takes. Some of the outlining is done, but I have no clue how much. He’ll need about a year from completion of first/second draft to release date. I’m still holding on to hope for a fall 2020 release (I’d prefer September, but I likely won’t get that!), but realistically, it may be a second-quarter 2021 release instead.
He was originally planning to write The Lost Metal (Mistborn Era 2 #4) this fall, but that’s not solid any more, because he’d really like to knock out the first drafts of the 2nd and 3rd Skyward books and be finished with that stage of that project. If he decides to go straight on to Skyward 3, that will probably take most of the rest of this year. Then he’ll have to choose between TLM and SA4 for the next project. Tough call! I guess we’ll just have to watch his status bars and see what he chooses to do.
On the bright side, we should find out what the secret project is within the next three months… though we already know it’s not Cosmere.
Heh, I almost said three years, but my daughter keeps optimistically reassuring me that Brandon Sanderson writes fast and I have nothing to worry about, but I suspect I shall be an octogenarian by the time book ten rolls around.
@Wetlandernw, #68, I am fearful you are being optimistic. Based on this year, Mr. Sanderson will take on three new projects and push more Cosmere work back to approximately 2025.
Honestly I am not thrilled that Sanderson might be pushing off the final book in the Wax and Wayne Era Mistborn as I would love to see it completed and resolved but considering we got Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning one after the other, I am not exactly in position to complain lol. First world problems.
Carl, not really. Skyward was a replacement project when Apocalypse Guard didn’t work right, but he’d have been spending that time working on something for Random Penguin anyway. The contract was already in place. The “Secret Project” is really the only new thing he took on, and from what little I know, it was just one of those things he had burning in his brain and needed to get out.
As I said, he’d planned to write TLM this fall and then start writing SA4 in January with some of the outlining already done. That schedule is in jeopardy, probably in part due to the need to start fresh on the YA project after already having spent a bunch of writing time on it. Last I heard, he’s likely to spend this fall finishing off the Skyward trilogy (plus some touring and stuff). Then he’ll make the decision whether to go ahead with TLM and push SA4 out another 6-12 months, or to just pull TLM from the current schedule and slot it in after SA4 is done. We can speculate all we want, but we probably won’t find out until mid-December when he posts the next State of the Sanderson. Then everyone can either cheer or moan, depending on what he does with their favorite series.
I figure I’ll probably be dead before he’s done writing the Cosmere, so I’ve decided not to worry about the order of publication and just enjoy all the things he writes. On a solid guess, once I’m dead I won’t care about the rest…
I’m (going to be) with you on the “dead before the Cosmere is done” part, Alice. Note that your proposed schedule assumes that Dark One will take no time at all.
Last time I read an update by Brandon, he still spoke of wanting to star SA4 in January and I think this was fairly recent. I recalled he commented on this at a recent signing.
Here some recent WoB on writing SA4.
We know Brandon takes about one year to outlay each Stormlight book before he starts writing. We also know Oathbringer took longer than anticipated. I am not sure why, I can only say I noticed the usual process was much slower for this one than it was for other books. I always figured the author perhaps had issues getting down what he wanted and/or his decision to change the planned outline for the flashbacks caused a ripple effect and/or he was still working on adapting the outlay due to the Adolin effect (he commented recently on how he needed to change his outlay when he decided to make him a main characters, his words, not mines).
Either way, we do know outlaying OB took more time than anticipated. Now, one year into the process, Brandon seems confident about SA4. He already wrote the Szeth’s flashbacks, he had planned for the Eshonai/Venli narrative for quite some time. Whatever issues he might have had with other characters seem like he solved them. Dalinar had his flashbacks in book 3 and they worked nicely. Will this cause issues in book 5 where he had originally planned to have them? Perhaps, but next book is book 4 and it has less Dalinar. Whatever rippling effect Adolin caused, Brandon seems to know where he is going with the character now.
Here is what Brandon had to recently say about The Lost Metal:
Short answer is, he doesn’t know when he will write the book. His intentions seem to want to push it in between projects or as a break while working on SA4. The way I see it, it could go both ways, but he seems very adamant on starting SA4 in January. He wasn’t this… resolute about Oathbringer. That book took a long time before the author sat down to actually write it and he took many breaks in the middle of it.
So all this to say, chances are SA4 will get out in 2020, as planned though I would personally bet more on early 2021. The Lost Metal should get out at some point during this gap, I doubt Brandon will push it for after SA4.
Lost Metal is probably what I’m looking forward to most :)
Brandon re-confirmed on Facebook, this week, his plans still is to start SA4 in January and to push for The Lost Metal during down time while writing SA4.
Start SA4 in Jan. IIRC he expects about a year to finish writing it. We wouldn’t expect to actually see it before late 2020 at best, more likely 2021. That puts SA5 in 2024 at the earliest. Since there are at least 5 Cosmere books scheduled between SA5 and SA6, the “back five” would presumably start no sooner than 2028, more likely 2030.
It takes Brandon about one year of work to write on SA book once he has planned it. If we are to take Oathbringer as an example, he does take breaks during this one year of writing to work on “other projects”, hence we can expect the writing of SA4 will actually stretch over a longer time period. Already, he said he planned to write the Lost Metal at some point during his writing of SA4. We can suspect he’ll also take time off to also write Wandersail though what prompted him to release Edgedancer was the fact he felt bad he couldn’t deliver Oathbringer within the dates he first announced. So what will happen to Wandersail remains unknown. He may also take on other side projects.
Once the book is finished, it takes a minimum of 9 months of editying before it can be released. 9 months actually is the “fast speed-up schedule” which he put Oathbringer onto. I am personally hoping he will not do the same this time around, I am hoping he will not try to fastened the reviewing process even if it means getting the book 6 months later.
Hence, a release in 2020 is possible, but early 2021 seems more probable even if he starts writing in January. It all depends on how much he will actually write within the next year: if he is very focused on it, it can definitely make a 2020 release.
Predicting for SA5 and onward is impossible at this stage. One thing which may speed up the writing is the fact Brandon already wrote the flashback sequences.
So he won’t be taking an additional 3 months off writing Szeth’s flashbacks while writing Oathbringer, but there might be other issues with SA4 which will require more time than anticipated. Juggling with his characters might be more difficult this time around.
Of course, when I say that “we” won’t read SA4 until 2021, I don’t mean our hostesses. You beta readers will start seeing chapters next year. It’s us omega readers that will have to wait.
@79 I like the sound of being an “Omega reader.” Nicely turned phrase there.